Steve Price

Bill Lang is the CEO of Small Business Australia. Just when we thought we were going to have freedom Friday in Melbourne, Bill, we get this nonsense about having your hair cut in the street.

Bill Lang

Yeah, well, it sounds like Steve for you, it doesn’t take very long when you get yours done, but, you know, maybe you won’t need the shampoo in parts of Melbourne are a particular hour during Melbourne, if you’re out there on the street and it comes down, it’ll save the barbershop having to pay for the extra water. But look, it’s the absolute craziness and continued inconsistency of sort of state by state approaches. What they say versus when you read into the detail. Just further uncertainty for anyone who’s got a small business who now has to again, try and interpret what the rules mean, and how do they apply, which will mean again, many of them will just say, Look, I’m not going to reopen. You know, I thought that there was, you know, so-called hope at the end of the tunnel, light at the end of the tunnel. But the continued uncertainty, particularly in certain types of industries where the inconsistency between I can, you know, go to my home, and it’s okay to visit a person’s place and visit with fully vaccinated people. But those people can’t go to a shop, they can go to a supermarket, they never go to a supermarket all throughout the pandemic. We haven’t seen explosions of cases of people, you know, catching the virus, you know, in supermarkets over the 19 months that this thing’s been going on for, yet we still have these rulers loving making rules. And I think there’s a real COVID cover-up going on here Steve.

Steve Price

Yeah. And that might be about to be blown. And I’m sure you’re aware of this legal action that’s been taken partly funded by the Jim’s mowing group to find out whether they can get their hands on the actual health advice that Brett Sutton has been passing to the government now if that comes out, that’ll be fascinating.

Bill Lang

Yeah, absolutely Steve and for, you know, more than 12 months, you know, around the country, you know, reasonable people have been asking for, you know, disclosure of you know, the health advice, you know, what have been the options, what’s been analysed, and when I say cover-up, the real cover-up here is along the lines of, you know, Australians don’t know just how geared up their health systems are. How productive they are, how many beds there are. We’re already seeing in Western Australia, in fact, it’s probably the most underprepared, you know, healthcare system. And we keep doing what got to protect the health system. And then most of Australians will go Yeah, well, that’s sort of emotionally makes sense. But isn’t the health system there to protect Australians? And who’s responsible for the health system? Or fundamentally, it’s operated by the governments and governments over a number of years. And of course, we have the state and federal governments pointing fingers at each other and blaming each other well, they’re responsible for that, and you know, blah, blah, blah. But, but the real thing here is like, what is the capacity? How, to what extent are they geared up? You know, why aren’t there enough people working in it, etc, etc. And the other sorts of questions now that people in the full light of day is starting to ask around, just how resilient are our public services, and it’s clear that they’re very different state by state.

Steve Price

You look at someone like this wholesale shoemaking business in Mentone, quoted in The Age today, where the boss David Jigilottie, says our floor space is seven and a half 1000 square metres, and we’re not allowed to have a person in the store. I mean, that makes no sense.

Bill Lang

Look, look, it doesn’t. And this is where, you know, small business owners and operators, you know, take a lot of risks, learn a lot of things by doing things, very practical people. And this is where they’re sort of shake their head and go, who’s making the decisions? What is their level of knowledge? What’s their level of engagement? Why, what do, you know, again, we had in Victoria is an example, you know, only took sort of seven days for it to get turned over. But based on absolutely no evidence, you know, closing children’s playgrounds. Same thing, there’s still a curfew in Victoria, if your listeners, you know, around Australia, there’s still a curfew going on into it. Absolutely no evidence to support it. And is it any wonder that we’re certainly seeing in our tracking research, a rapid decline in the level of trust in particular state governments, by the people in those states.

Steve Price

The regions in Victoria now have hospitality up and running. I was mentioning yesterday that a friend of mine was in a pub on the Bellarine Peninsula on Saturday, where the one per four square metre rule meant that in the bar where they have a dining room, they were booked out at the capacity of eight people, the table of six and a table of two,

Bill Lang

Now, Steve, you do the basic, yeah, numbers on that, yeah, there’s no profit being generated, you know, from that set up on the inside. And so what that means is, you know, that small business owner, and that small business owners family is effectively funding and providing employment for their staff and welcoming back those limited number of customers, but continuing to lose money. This is not a big business with you know, shareholders and millions of dollars. This is money that’s coming out of the family’s pocket. And we’ve seen in our research again, business owners have had to draw in superannuation and in some cases sold homes, drawn down on their savings, borrowed extra money where they can, but there’s a whole bunch that aren’t doing anything to go, look, we’re not taking any more risks. We’re going to keep sort of just staying closed until we have some more sanity and some more consistency that we understand. Because we’ve seen the flip-flopping that goes on, apparently, when the polls start changing. Now it’s time to move into a gear and don’t worry about a couple of 1000 positive cases in Victoria over the last couple of days, you know, now we’re on, we’re definitely opening up you see this sort of the flip of the switch, because they’re politicians and it’s all about the politics, staying in power or getting into power.

Steve Price

Yeah, it’s very, very disappointing human on a positive note, there will be changes on Friday, there will be some movement again, and hopefully that 80% double vaccinated rate will kick in around November 1/2 a couple of days before Melbourne Cup at 80% double vaccinated. We really need to be fully up and open and operational don’t we?

Bill Lang

Oh look, absolutely Steve and you know, we’d say the premier of New South Wales they’re really easily accelerator like he and his team are on the front foot moving forward in terms of reopening up and letting people get on with their lives and live you know, sensibly with this form of Coronavirus out there in the community. You know, Victoria, they certainly have with the races coming up, there’s nothing like a popular thing for the punters out there, 10,000 people will be I’ll be able to go to the Melbourne Cup etc. But, but come on Victorian Government giddy up, giddy up, let’s get the show open. There’s a lot of fully vaccinated people, fully vaccinated business owners, they should be able to do business in the normal way right now.

Steve Price

Great to catch up as usual. Bill, thank you have a good week.

Bill Lang

Thank you Steve.

Steve Price 

The Treasurer Josh Frydenberg, writing in the Australian newspaper today at the weekend, said industry chiefs now must beat the drum and pressure states and territories to stick to the national cabinets reopening plan. Bill Lang is the executive director of Small Business Australia, joins us on the line. Thanks for your time this morning.

Bill Lang 

Morning Steve.

Steve Price 

How’s the frustration level for small business going?

Bill Lang 

Well, you know, it varies state by state Steve, but it’s well past acute in the state of Victoria, of course, you’ve got a premier here and a government effectively using strategies that they used last year against last year’s virus, this year against the new Delta strain, and a continued focus on sort of numbers and numbers of young people getting the virus. Absolutely no plan, no timetable, no articulation of what an easing of restrictions will look like and what needs to be achieved there. So in the state of Victoria, in particular, the ongoing pain of uncertainty is absolutely at the highest levels it’s been over the last 18 months. Things are a bit better in New South Wales, fortunately, at least from the beginning of the lockdown there, albeit some would say that it was a bit too slow and didn’t go hard enough, etc. But I think history might end up telling us it’s been more measured, but at least the level of financial support, although hard and difficult to get out has been at a much greater level to many more businesses in New South Wales and what any other businesses in Victoria have seen. And then around the country yet anyone on boarders Steve, anyone in tourist related areas, they’re hurting.

Steve Price 

Watching premier Daniel Andrews in Victoria yesterday, dressed in black, looking very dishevelled. He seems to you know, give no one any hope whatsoever and was so negative.

Bill Lang 

Yeah look Steve, I don’t know that your viewers outside of Victoria would have seen it in many Victorians and trying to keep away from watching it. But it brought back memories to me of, of watching Richard Nixon being interviewed, as but I think that’s exactly the case. And I think he sort of said, Look, we really can’t say anything, we have to wait for the Chief Health Officer to be back at work. And then I read something this morning in the paper about the Chief Health Officers fronting up to a parliamentary inquiry, questioning his integrity over the closing down of a small business here in Victoria a couple of years ago. So if you’ve got the, you know, your chief health officer about to, you know, front of parliamentary inquiry, and their their career and their integrity being questioned, and that person is leading the best medical advice that the premier of Victoria is waiting for. It’s very, very concerning.

Steve Price 

I mentioned Josh Frydenberg writing in the Australian today, he said, quite many businesses are just holding on with uncertainty hanging over their heads, they can’t plan a week, little and a month ahead, because they do not know whether the states and territories will stick to what was agreed at national cabinet. Now, that’s an appalling situation where you’ve got a federal government, who’s responsible for taxation and national security, on the taxation front, they keep doling money out to these individual states, but they don’t seem to be able to extract a promise about what might happen at what vaccination level. That’s just unacceptable, isn’t it?

Bill Lang 

Look, look it is, but fought, but unfortunately, it seems to be quite legal with respect to the way our Constitution, you know, drawn up by you know, a bunch of people back at the turn of, you know, the 1800s to the 1900s. So, he really wouldn’t say it’s fit for purpose, the document. So we’ve got the practicalities of how that sort of system works. And we’ve also got, unfortunately, as political overload, people say, you’ve got to keep the politics out of it, but they’re all politicians. And, you know, it’s saying the politicians, the thing that I like most is having power. And, you know, if Scott Morrison and the Liberal Party in the coalition lose some seats in places like Queensland or in places like Western Australia, they’ll be out. So it would appear the premiers of those states have absolutely got them over a barrel. Now, it’s of no benefit to Australians more broadly. We have effectively, you know, governors of colonies doing what they want to do under their state constitutions. And unless, you know, the federal government actually takes a stand on that it’s one thing for the treasurer, the Federal Treasurer to say that the business leaders should be banging the drum, I think you’ll find the business leaders and organisational leaders have been talking to all levels of government, you know, right from the beginning of this pandemic, and with a general theme of that, you know, living sensibly, living sensibly with the virus, not letting it rip, but living sensibly for more than 18 months. So there’s been no question, no issue with respect to that taking place. But are they really listening? Or are they just sitting there watching their polls, looking at the research, determining what are we going to do? How are we going to keep power? History is not going to be fine, and not going to be kind to this generation of leaders that we’ve had through this pandemic.

Steve Price 

What would small business like to see once a state gets to 70% vaccinated which is seems to be the magic figure for some reason.

Bill Lang 

Look, I think generally speaking, what small business people want are their customers back. And they would prefer to have them back well and truly before the 70%. But if they’re going to stick with the so called 70% number, let’s let them come back. But let’s be very clear right now about on what basis they can come back and how they can work. And more generally, let’s start building some confidence about what the future will look like of living sensibly with the virus. Let’s lay it out. Now in Victoria, there is absolutely no vision. So there is no specific goals, I would think about like using Google Maps, Steve, is like they’ve zoomed in here in Victoria to the closest possible place, and they are looking at the different houses on the map. But only when you zoom out, you start to get the big picture and get some sense of the destination, and what is the roadmap to get there and what are the options. We get no disclosure in the state of Victoria, about that, at least in New South Wales, these things are starting to be articulated with respect to schools, with respect to businesses opening with respect to different restrictions in different geographic areas, but start spelling all of that out so at least there is some certainty around what the future is going to look like and and what the timeframe is on getting there. And then at least within that construct, business owners can business families can start planning within that. Now the federal Treasurer says yeah, like, you know, somebody’s just hanging on, let me tell you, hundreds of 1000s of small businesses have closed and they’re closed for good. Yeah, the savings that the family have had have been drained down, the superannuation is gone. There are unpaid loans. We’re not seeing any numbers reported on that sort of stuff. But that is the reality of this and the Prime Minister would have talked about lives and livelihoods. What about the quality of life? Right? And what about the ability to maintain, you know, what you’ve spent, you know, decades working on. So again, we’re not all in it together. That’s absolutely not true. Small Business families continue to pay the greatest price of any part of the Australian community.

Steve Price 

There seems to be a nervous reluctance by leaders, both Gladys Berejiklian and Daniel Andrews I will use as the examples. They are running the two states most at risk with COVID here at the moment and the most lockdown. There seems a nervous reluctance to free up parts of their own city, or state where there is no COVID because they believe that they’re going to create two divisions within society. I mean, already in New South Wales, you’ve got 12 local government areas that are zoned as double red hot, if you like, and that are more restricted than others. Why do you think there is this reluctance to, to open up, for example, the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne or the eastern suburbs of Sydney? Or the Northern Beaches in Sydney? Why would a government not feel confident enough to do that?

Bill Lang 

It’s a it’s a, it’s a fantastic question. And this is where we just see a lack of real leadership. You know, again, we’ve lacked education from the beginning, we now lack ongoing education for all the people, how does the thing get passed around, rather than having people absolutely frightened and scared, and again, having to use the hammer. As soon as there’s a few cases, okay, we’re gonna get the hammer out and sort of close it down, which is sort of, you know, varying by states in terms of how they do it. But they won’t even they won’t even answer those sorts of questions was like, Look, they know what’s best for us Australians, Steve, whereas the majority of us are going, it just doesn’t make any sense. It’s like, Well, look, if people are fully vaccinated already, why can’t they start getting some of the benefits of being fully vaccinated, which means they’ll be able to have a better quality of life, as well as support small business families, as opposed to being restricted to do it. Why is most of Victoria locked down when there still hasn’t been a positive case with respect to any of those areas? And I want to leave you with this, this whole sort of piece of analysis here that we never say anything about it Steve. But well the health system won’t be able to cope, what about the Australian community can’t cope? What are they doing to build resilience into the health system? Like at the start of the pandemic, we heard about, we’re gonna have flu hospitals, we’re going to do this, like where is the creativity? Where is the planning on that? What What is the health system not being able to cope look like? Does it mean 15 million Australians continuing to be locked down and have the whole vigour of life being drained from them, press conference to press conference with respect to the way they’re leading us continually in the dark?

Steve Price 

Yeah, very well argued. Thank you very much Bill always a pleasure to catch up mate.

Bill Lang 

Thanks Steve, cheerio.

Steve Price 

Bill Lang, Executive Director, Small Business Australia

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

For this entire public sector, as I mentioned, nurses, teachers, emergency service personnel and government workers and bear in mind these are people who’ve kept their jobs throughout the pandemic. They being given paid leave to get vaccinated. But what about our private sector? What about our small businesses, many of whom are struggling? They seem to have been forgotten in this. The Industrial Relations minister Tim Pallas strongly encouraged all employers, including those in the private sector, to put in place an arrangement where their employees are paid to take time off to get the vaccination. Can they afford it? Randal Killip joins me now. He’s a head of research for Small Business Australia. Good afternoon Randal.

Randal Killip 

Good afternoon, Dee Dee.

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

Do you think it’s fair that private businesses, the private sector and not being given financial support to allow their employees to take time off with pay as you get the vacs?

Randal Killip 

It’s a really interesting one Dee Dee, you know, firstly, we support Small Business Australia, every measure to get people vaccinated. And we understand it’s the only way out of this crisis, very supportive, the Prime Minister urging us to get to the 70-80% magical number. But what we’re seeing here, again, it’s happened throughout the pandemic. Now, we’re well into it by eight months into the sort of two-tiered, two-tiered employee, two-tiered economy where you have the public sector, you know, that, keep their jobs as you’ve rightly said, many have had pay rises, they get paid extra to work from home, the office workers, and now they get a day off, they get a vaccine on top of other entitlements. Whereas for the for the private sector, for the small businesses, it’s a situation of ‘oh well, it’s out of your own pocket’, you carry the burden, you’ve been closed for over 200 days, you’ve been heavily restricted to, you know, for basically 18 months you can’t trade. And by the way, can you pick up the tab for your workers to go off and get a jab tomorrow? I mean, it’s just completely unfair. I think that’s the only way to say it.

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

So Randall, what sort of reaction were you hearing from small businesses to that news that the public sector was getting support to have vaccinations?

Randal Killip 

They’re were really concerned about this sort of whole grey area around vaccinations to be honest Dee Dee. To them, it’s just another added burden they’re being asked to carry. But they’re also a lot of grey area around vaccinations of, you know, should we get our employees to do it? Shouldn’t we get our employees to do it? There’s no direction, there’s no framework. And yet again, we have the Relations Minister and Treasurer, Tim Pallas, coming out saying, Oh, well, you know, you just sort it out, just to get your, your employees to do it, they’re completely frustrated. And to be straightforward, many, absolutely at the end of their tether, they’re broken. They can’t go on, and simply had enough of the government lobbying one more thing and another thing and another thing on top of them, while they try and wade their way through this financial nightmare that most of them find themselves in.

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

So they need any approach to the government for some sort of financial support so that small businesses can have their workers vaccinated?

Randal Killip 

I’m not aware of any we’ve actually gone to gone to government, I think we fought very hard, obviously, around compensation for businesses and getting adequate compensation. We’ve seen some improvements on that on that front. But nowhere near what they’re asked to cover the 1000s, and 1000s of dollars in losses they’re facing each week as we remain locked down. My view on this would be similar view to Small Business Australia is we’d actually expect the Victorian Government to turn around to  their workforce, their entire public sector force and say, we’re going to mandate you to have vaccines. And this is a health reason not to, because what we actually want to see are these office workers back into the city, back into their city offices. The trade as open and so that we can actually see financial, the financial future of those traders secured. What we don’t want to see is this haphazard approach of differing ideas and balls in the air, it should be a very simple thing. The Fair Work Ombudsman has come out and told the private sector, it’s up to you to work, it is reasonable for your workforce to be vaccinated, we’d expect greater direction from government and I’m actually setting the standard on this Dee Dee. I don’t think we actually need to give people the day off. I think that could be covered by sick leave, I don’t understand why would even consider adding a day off. But you know, let’s put in place strong policies that actually say, this is the rules for the workforces. If it’s a day off, then that’s costs covered by the government. If it’s going to be done that, you know, all public facing workers should be vaccinated, let’s get that done. If we can get as many office workers back to the city as possible through vaccination, let’s get that done. But let’s see firm directions with firm rules. So they sort of floating these ideas. It just frustrates the owners, they’re under enough pressure as it is.

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

How are they doing at the moment? How is the Small Business picture to your eyes at the moment?

Randal Killip 

It’s horrible. I spoke to 1000s of business owners every week. They are, I mean, you’ll have grown men in tears, just crying on the phone. I mean, many telling me they just don’t know what to do. They don’t know how to cope. They’re at home crying with their families. I mean, the mental health issues in those homes is absolutely unbelievable. We are seeing devastation across the community. For many Victorians, it doesn’t feel like that because it’s simple, you get paid, you go home, you watch Netflix, so you can work from the office, and that’s fine. But when you run your own business, if you work in tourism, you work in hospitality, you work in anything that’s customer facing, you run a gym, you’re on your knees, and you’re wondering what tomorrow will bring. I mean, they are on a brink of financial devastation. Their real concern is the endless nature of what we’re seeing in front of us. They don’t know how long we will be locked down for, nobody knows. It’s, it’s horrible. I must say, I’m usually quite emotional and you talk to them, because you just you just feel their whole life being sucked away from them.

Dee Dee Dunleavy 

I absolutely understand what you’re saying. And I’ve spoken to a few that have called and shared their stories and it’s it honestly, it stays in my head. You know, when you’re let, you’re probably the same. And when you lay down to sleep at night, live replays in your head, it’s just to hear people who’ve worked their whole lives losing everything, and there’s nothing you do to help them. It’s, it’s devastating. Randall, thank you so much for your time, Randal Killip, he’s the head of research for Small Business Australia. And you hear the clear picture that Randal paints and they’re off the state of small business at the moment and then to ask them to pay employees to take time off to have the vaccination. I’m sure they want their back or their employees to be vaccinated, and they will support them to do that. But where are they supposed to find that money from? And yet the government supporting its own workers to be to have paid time off to be vaccinated. It’s so unfair. They’re the wrong people to be asking them to stand on their own two feet through it. They need the support.

Steve Price 

125,000 businesses across Greater Sydney still waiting for financial assistance according to a story in the Sydney Morning Herald by Caitlin Fitzsimmons today, as of noon, Saturday, the New South Wales Government, get this, had received 199,316 applications for business grants, but approved and paid just 62,671 of them. A New South Wales government spokesman said it paid out $362 million so far with another $122 coming in several days time. But many people who qualified for those original grants and lodged application sooner after the opening day, back on July 21, still no money. Bill Lang is the CEO of Small Business Australia joins us on the line. Thanks for hanging on.

Bill Lang 

Good morning, Steve.

Steve Price 

It’s a confusing picture across the country. Let’s start with Victoria. Why is the whole state shut down? Given there are only 11 active cases in the western suburbs of Melbourne?

Bill Lang

Well, there’s a playbook down here in Victoria, which is sort of has one strategy and that’s statewide lockdown. So the solution they go for every time, and there’s no doubt lock downs will work if you’re looking to reduce the spread, and get the cases down. However, there’s never any cost benefit analysis with respect to any support to Small Business families, it’s often too little, too late. Still happen this time with lockdown number six, this this focus, this maniac will focus on the total number of cases, positive cases, how many out and about in the community, etc, etc. Steve, we don’t see, we don’t see a country anywhere in the world, even those with the highest vaccination rates, where they’re not having to learn how to go forward with this virus and its various variants. Poor old Delta Goodrem, probably wants to change your name now. But by the time we get down to Omega, the reality is we’re going to be open and working out how to go about our lives with respect to some form of Coronavirus out there. And that, you know, what you just said is exactly right leadership. Where is the leadership? And what’s the definition? Well, yeah, a clear vision, a vision of something we want to move towards, communicated by our leaders in a clear and consistent way. The missing information.

Steve Price 

As Natasha just said, I mean, the government’s now seem to be standing up pointing the finger at all of us, and we you got to go and get vaccinated. Well, okay, we were happy to go and get vaccinated, give us enough supply, so we can go and do it.

Bill Lang 

And not only that Steve. Let’s, let’s see the address from the lodger with whatever particular house the Prime Minister’s in with a couple of the key advisors sharing all the information with us. Look, here’s what we know. Here’s what we don’t know. Here’s what we’re doing about it. Here’s what we need you to do. Over and over and over and over again, consistent clear communication, full transparency, giving us the total count of you know, the number of jobs that have been administered yesterday, you know, blah, blah, blah, all anyone cares about is when are we going to get there in terms of the amount of capacity by location where people can go out there and get their vaccinations, but but it’s lack of consistent clear communication to build the confidence of everybody Steve, which I think is one of the number one issues.

Steve Price 

We’ve got a situation where the two biggest states are in lockdown, you’ve got Queensland with parts of Queensland, now, Cains in lockdown, but I make the point that those other states that are not are going about their business, but small business in those places must be suffering as well, because they don’t have the engine room economies of Sydney and Melbourne to drive them along.

Bill Lang 

Well, there’s no question about that. So anything that was related to travel and tourism is being heard. But again, you’ve also got the level of overall citizen confidence to actually spend money. And same with when it comes to buying things online, potentially from other states. You know, some people are reducing what they’re spending as a result of their lack of confidence. And it’s one thing we’d ask every citizen, every Australian to keep supporting your local businesses. And people have been just amazing over the 18 months in terms of doing that to provide direct support by buying things from local businesses. But make no mistake that those other states for as much as I like to be independent colonies and point the finger and carry on. They’re going to be impacted by this. The only one that sort of not really getting impacted as a result of, you know, its natural endowment of resources with all the orange dirt is WA, but the rest of them are also increasingly now experiencing real pain.

Steve Price 

Do you believe that the vast majority of the population would support choosing a date to when Australia stops getting locked down and we move forward?

Bill Lang 

I think they absolutely would, based on some full open disclosure and explanation and education of the situation we are in now. What it’s going to take to get out of it and the timeframe, etc. Then have the confidence that it can actually be done. As opposed to all this noise we continue to hear there’s even fighting going on within the New South Wales Government with respect to in its cabinet and the finger pointing over you know, people the small businesses not getting access to the money that they were promised quickly enough. So they’ve got ministers pointing fingers at each other. But that’s not what we want. We’re supposed to be working together – What’s the problem? How can we fix it? Communicate it clearly, bring the people with you.

Steve Price 

Yeah, well said Bill, good to catch up again mate. Thanks a lot. Bill Lang, CEO of Small Business Australia.

Steve Price

Bill Lang, is the Executive Director of Small Business Australia, he’s been kind enough to join us again. Thanks for your time.

Bill Lang 

Morning Steve.

Steve Price 

What did you make of the Morrison package announced yesterday?

Bill Lang 

Well, it’s, it’s very good news. And, you know, after many, many months of a lot of activity from many of your listeners, signing our petition, and making it clear that there were significant gaps, lots of holes, a lot of small businesses not being supported, we’re finally seeing a bit of a Team Australia approach in terms of the 50/50. Ensuring that, you know, a bunch of smaller business can get access to some cover, there’s some other things happening at state levels around some rent relief, and support for some of the commercial landlords. So Well, look, I think we give it a 7 out of 10, Steve. There’s still more to be done, but very, very positive moves and very welcomed by the majority of small business owners.

Steve Price 

Melbourne is now you know, out of lockdown, in a sense, I mean, you’re still kind of people visit your home. But do you get any sense before we turn our attention to what the disaster that’s unfolding in Sydney, do you get any sense Bill that the Melbourne economy will and small business will rebound quickly? Or is this rebound going to be slower than last time?

Bill Lang 

Steve, I think it’s important for everyone to recall that, you know, Melbourne and Victoria has had more than 180 days over the last year or so in terms of lockdown. So it’s actually the cumulative effect of these things that have an impact on the citizens confidence, the willingness of small business owners to go forward, we’re actually in lockdown 5.5, in Victoria, that’s the reality because many businesses still have significant restrictions upon what they’re able to do. And we still have certain businesses are able to be open, for example, you know, legal brothels can operate. Yet people can’t get together and meet with their family in their home. So there’s still a whole bunch of inconsistency. And there’s still quite a bit of pessimism around and the other thing, of course, is, yesterday, the Prime Minister has finally said it’s Christmas, right? So Christmas is going to be the time, which means between now and Christmas, and that, what I mean by the time that the you know the maximum or the minimum full vaccination rate will be required. And he said, there’ll be no more lock downs, from Christmas onwards. That means we’ve got four more months Steve, we’ve already had five in Melbourne, Victoria, where 5.5 now effectively. So most of small business owners that have really suffered during the last 12 months are going, ‘Do I open back up again right now?’ you know what will happen here in Melbourne and Victoria, for example, in the next couple of weeks. So there’s an expectation that we’re going to continue to see these and the Prime Minister admitted it yesterday, all the way through to Christmas, based on whatever the premiers decide they want to do.

Steve Price 

You can either look at that Christmas reference, optimistically or pessimistically, I must say, I got pessimistic about it. When I thought really Christmas, it’s only the end of July. And we’re really going to be going through this for another four and a half months. I mean, how can you plan and do a budget and work out what your staff numbers are going to be and what stocks going to be if you have got no certainty over the back half of this year?

Bill Lang 

Well you can’t Steve, right? So the only people that can play with any certainty are people on sort of full salaries, sitting in a very secure with jobs in the public service or politicians federal until at least the next federal election. And people that are maybe working for some large corporations that are in a very secure position. Another major gap from the announcement sort of yesterday’s, there are a number of small businesses that have people as full time employees or sort of part time employees. And there are significant issues under the Fair Work Australia act with respect to being able to reduce their hours. So the business owners are still having to pay those wages and salaries, and not actually getting enough money back. Now the prime minister said yesterday about JobKeeper and not bringing JobKeeper 3 back because the new ones better. He said, You know what, you don’t play this year’s Grand Final based on the way you played last year’s Grand Final right. In terms of winning a Premiership but I look at, you know, the the Tigers and the Storm, couple of sporting teams from Victoria, their game plan has been pretty good, you know, three or four in the last five grand finals. So what we’ve got now is effectively a JobKeeper point 3.0 to some degree, but there’s still issues around the Fair Work Act. And of course, the unions are still jumping up and down about you know, all of this sort of stuff. But the small business families are the ones paying directly out of their own pocket to the extent there’s any money left in it, to actually be able to support those employees. So we’ve still got some gaps, there’s more to be done.

Steve Price 

Yeah I heard an example of a large hotel chain where their normal weekly payroll bills about $85,000. And clearly they’re not operating, they’re in shutdown mode. And they can’t in Victoria even open again properly, because of the four, one person per four square metre rule. They’re still paying out half of that payroll to their workers, because they have to ensure that they’ve got some workers who’s still on the books when they reopen again.

Bill Lang 

Look that’s exactly right. And there’s a couple of other interesting things, they’re also still paying workers compensation premiums or WorkCover premiums. They’re also paying payroll tax. Yet these people actually aren’t working because they’re not allowed to have them working because they can’t have enough customers to come into the business. So, as I said, there’s still gaps there. A lot of catching up going on in terms of the public servants actually understanding how businesses work. But it’s been great, particularly your listeners, Steve, and your support for our petition at www.SOSBiz.com.au because we’ve had 1000s and 1000s of Australian citizens say yes, small business families should be saved, more needs to be done. And at least we’re seeing some more positive things happen in the last couple of days. But there’s still some gaps for the guys to catch up and fill.

Steve Price 

And those border closures are the other killer. They keep stopping people from moving around and anyone running a small business, it’s anywhere impacted by tourism, it must be doing an extremely tough and then you’ve got this decision made by the the Andrews government to scrap that border barrier, and that the you know, the barriers between Southern New South Wales and Northern Victoria means people can’t move across the river.

Bill Lang

Look it’s been now for 18 months along the Murray River in particular has been one of the hardest hit areas in terms of whatever New South Wales has done, or Victoria has done or the federal government’s done. There has been billions of economic value taken out of that area. Look, and we use the word tough a lot or the politicians use this word tough a lot. You know, just imagine how tough is it if you’ve actually lost everything in terms of building up your travel agency business, your tourism business, you’ve taken out your superannuation, you’ve sold your house, more than 100,000 houses have been sold by small business owners. That’s more than doing a tough Steve. There’s a whole bunch of these businesses, they’re now gone. Now these are very resilient people, and they’ll get themselves going again, but again, they have paid the greatest price or far greater price than anyone elses paid with respect to, you know, being making their contribution to the management of the pandemic, well and truly over and above any other Australian.

Steve Price 

And the politicians have had a pay rise in the middle of it. I mean, that just beggars belief.

Bill Lang

Those things won’t be won’t be forgotten. Steve, I’m sure in elections around the land, you would have thought that we’re all in it together if you had a guaranteed incomes actually having a reduction in terms of what you’re getting paid because you’ve got the security and the certainty of your job. Maybe we need to see a you know, a surcharge in terms of income tax on those people or people whose assets portfolios have grown thanks to low interest rates. There’s a lot to be done, Steve, a lot to be done.

Steve Price 

Always a pleasure to catch up. Thanks a lot.

Bill Lang 

Appreciate it Steve.

Steve Price

Bill Lang, the executive director Small Business Australia.

Mike Amor

10,000s of 100,000s of businesses impacted by the lockdown extension are eligible for almost $300 million in extra support. But leading business groups say that’s nowhere near enough to help keep many businesses afloat. For more now, let’s hear from Bill Lang from Small Business Australia. Bill, thank you for your time. Is the state government’s support announced today enough?

Bill Lang

Way too little and way too late and for way too few business. They’re talking about 90,000 businesses but we have over 500,000 small business families here in Victoria and we’re now passing 180 days of lockdowns. We’ve got hardly one in five will receive anything. If they received something. It’s a few $1,000, there were still 10,000s of 100,000s of small businesses that were told they were eligible for lockdown number four, still waiting to receive money, Mike.

Mike Amor

What happens to these businesses that you say are falling through the cracks?

Bill Lang

Well many of them closing down, they’ve already closed down because they’ve already drawn on their own family savings. They’ve access their superannuation, some have already sold their houses, some are basically giving up Mike, that’s what’s happening. And these people are the hearts and souls of our local communities. And we need the government ministers to stop telling porkies and start telling the truth about the fact that they don’t understand and they have not been providing enough direct support fast enough.

Mike Amor

We hear there are problems for those who are receiving cash that they’re not receiving it in their accounts. But the government says that problem lies with the banks, could they be doing more?

Bill Lang

There seems to be someone else to blame when it comes to anything that goes wrong here in the state of Victoria. Like they’ll announce a lockdown and then we’ll hear the premier say, we’ll have more to say about support. We’re 18 months into this. Hasn’t all this stuff been sorted out and organised. We just always appear to be playing catch up.

Mike Amor

Bill, what more can be done? Let’s be honest here, this is a situation that no one wants, no one likes, like state government says is paid around $7billion to businesses throughout the pandemic that’s around 10% of our budget. What more can it do?

Bill Lang

Well, I think there’s a number of things. So start telling the full truth as opposed to throwing around those big numbers and show the evidence as to whether that we have where that money is actually gone? Is it going to small business families, and we would say it’s hardly going to small business families. Secondly, every small business has contracts entered into before the pandemic started, that they’re still subject to them, whether that relates to leasing premises, leasing equipment, paying taxes to the state government, they’ve just been hit, we’ve all been hit now with land, stamp duty related invoices. There’s a whole range of things that the government can be doing to soften the blow and give everyone the best chance of staying afloat, but many are not making it

Mike Amor

All right. What’s your message to those business owners or operators watching this right now?

Bill Lang

Hang in there, we’re hopeful that we’re going to see even more help come from the federal government and that the Victorian Government steps up more, of course, you have to minimise the cash flowing out. We encourage every Victorian to support their local businesses talk to them, they can tell you the truth on what’s going on and keep buying local please.

Mike Amor

Okay, Bill Lang, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

Bill Lang

Thank you, Mike.